I own a PA28-180 Archer I and will be doing some mountain flying and training this summer. Any suggestions on what I can do to make my Archer more suited to mountain flying. Thanks
You have 180 HP so if you keep the density altitude issues a priority and fly early in the morning or in the evening you should be alright.
If you cross passes make sure to keep the 30/30 rule on hand, that is if the winds are 30kts at the mountain tops or visibility is less than 30 miles then it's not VFR.
An Archer with two people and full fuel will be hard pressed to reach 10,000 MSL in the heat of the summer.
Most runways in the rockies are long, 5,000',so if density altitude reaches 9,000 then start thinking twice about flying until it cools down, if you plan on any high elevation airports such as lake city in Leadville then don't unless it's below standard temperature, a good time to tour the rockies and visit airports like Leadville, Aspen and Telluride is in the fall.
I live in NM and my field elevation is at 5,800', I also have a Cherokee 180 and I fly conservativly in the summer.
You can do a lot of mountain flying in the summer but you can't play with the big boys (14,000'mountains) unless you are turbo charged.
Take a course on AOPA about mountain flying.
Your Archer will be more suited to mountain flying if you follow these suggestions along with filling up to the tabs and keeping your airplane light (get rid of all of the stuff in the luggage area).
AW
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2008 06:03PM by alex.
Lots of good advice for mountain flying. Guess if one lives in the mountains,one should know the rules! Another good technique I learned is to approach ridge lines at a 45 degree angle; so you can turn away if you see you aren;t high enough. Especially important if you are on the downwind side.
Wanted to ask you about a route from ABQ to Las Vegas. May have an oportunity to take my Cherokee 180D next Sep. I have looked at the maps and can't get comfortable going west out of ABQ. May fall back to the El Paso, Phoenix route. Have you been west to the Vegas area and have a recommendation?
I am currently working on getting my IFR rating current which has been out of date for the last 35 yrs. Notticed a few rule changes!
Thanks for the info...really appreciate it. I guess I was really asking if their is anything of a hardware nature that I can do to increase lift and shorten take-off / landings. I know there's alot of stuff out there but what really works if anything. Thanks again
Don't mean to piggyback on this post, but the responses will be similar. Niece's wedding is in Leadville in early July. I am a 220 hour VFR pilot with no mountain experience flying a Cherokee 140 out of the Chicago area. Is there a way to get in to Leadville with a service ceiling of only 14,300 feet? Should I land somewhere east of the front range and rent a car?
The answer to your last question is...yes. There are various things / items you can use. However, for safety, honed skills and confidence I strongly recommend a Mountain Flying Course. There is a phenomenal school in Idaho - McCall, Idaho I believe. This school has been critiqued time and time again by various flying and pilot magazines.
As for which hardware you can consider, Some of these are:
- Horton STOL kit - works great, not cheap, installation takes expert - but if you plan on flying in the mountains as your norm... strongly consider it.
- AMR&D Vortex generators - Mr. M has shown what his devices can do again and again.
- Micro-Vortex Generators - Mr. White has a very easy to install kit that has been used by many MANY other Cherokee owners. Shortens t/o and landings but it's biggest benefit is low speed control and lowering stall speed.
- AMR&D Takeoff Technique - Go to Mr Madson's web page, read and see how his technique work for shortening take-offs dramatically.
- Repitch your prop.
There maybe more, but these are the ones I am familiar with. I have a 180C with the Horton and love it. The only downfall I have so far, is I can't get the proper wingtips with landing lights in them. THAT is my only complaint so far about the STOL kit.
That is my two cents - but I think the school will help you get more out of your technique, introduce you to the hazards associated with mountain flying - but in a controlled environment with a Subject Matter Expert along side you, and lastly, Idaho.
Thanks, Martin. That's exactly the type of information I was looking for. Where do you find Horton STOL kits for a Piper? My finance' and I are both looking into mountain flying training...probably in the Boulder/Loveland area. We absolutely need training from someone who really knows how to fly in that environment and preferably with a plane similar to ours. Thanks again.
Google Horton STOL and you'll find it. The initial page will talk about hangar doors, but go in and you'll see it.
Next - I know you live in CO, but I would strongly advise you and the future spousal unit fly out to Idaho and take that class in Mc Call. After you get the basics down, then take a class or two specific to your area Colorado. AND you will have additional mountain flying time and mountain flying cross country time, too.
That's the best I can do for the time being. Hey, you MIGHT even be able to get the Horton STOL kit, take the plane up to Washington State, meet Mr Charles White, he can install his micro-vortex generators for theoretically even lower stall speed but what should be definate increases in low speed handling, then take the mountain flying course in Idaho, then fly home.
For what it's worth, I am planning to take a mountain flying course while I'm in Denver in about three weeks (I posted on the training forum months ago seeking input on schools). When I called the first school, the response was, "well, um, none of our instructors are mountain current right now. Can you call back in a couple of months?" Hmmm... So I kept looking.
The school I chose is Journey's Aviation on the field at BJC. I booked with their head mountain instructor and we're planning to do the training in an Archer. The availability of the Piper was one of the reasons I went with that school. The school promotes training in their Diamond aircraft for better performance, but the instructor was fine using the Archer. I decided that I was there to learn high altitude and mountain flying, not learn how to fly a completely different airplane (don't get me wrong, the Diamond looks nice, it just wasn't part of my intended mission). Of course, this means that we scheduled all the lessons for very early in the day - 6:00 am, but heck, I'll still be on east coast time when I'm there.
Many years ago (before GPS or Loran), I flew a 1976 Archer PA-28-180 from Dayton, Ohio into Jackson Hole, Wyoming and from there to Lake Tahoe, California with just two on board (the wife and I) before going on to the San Francisco area. We had excellent weather, and I vowed to stay VFR in the mountains with winds not-to-exceed 20 knots forecast. My Mountain Flying Course was AOPA's handbook on the subject and I studied it carefully well before the trip. I believe the highest we flew was 12500' when approaching Jackson Hole. This was below the peaks, but there was sufficient space above a river to stay at this altitude. With proper VFR route planning and using pilotage for navigation this can be done safely (my finger never left the map when close to the mountains). While performance was not a problem, we remained cautious in knowing terrain height and achieving our desired altitude before poking between the peaks. The scenary was spectacular! Take whatever course works for you, be cautious and careful, and have a blast!
lwickter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't mean to piggyback on this post, but the
> responses will be similar. Niece's wedding is in
> Leadville in early July. I am a 220 hour VFR pilot
> with no mountain experience flying a Cherokee 140
> out of the Chicago area. Is there a way to get in
> to Leadville with a service ceiling of only 14,300
> feet? Should I land somewhere east of the front
> range and rent a car?
>
> Thanks.
Don't even think about Leadville with a Cherokee 140, pattern altitude is like 11,000'MSL and you will be lucky to get to 9,000' in July. Pick a low airway route and an airport with a lower elevation.
Fly real early when it's cool.I have a flight sim model of my Cherokee 180 and have tried Leadville at standard temperature with little luck,climb rates are around 100 ft/min so I would never consider taking my 180 to Leadville unless density altitude was around 9,000'MSL.My Cherokees cervice ceiling is 14,700 but it starts huffing and puffing at 13,500 in the winter months.I think your idea of landing East of the rockies is a good one, stay safe.A good time to mess with the rockies is in the fall when temperatures are at or below standard,also anything less than 180 HP here in the mountains is less than desirable.I wish I had at least 200HP and turbo charged.
AW
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2008 11:25AM by alex.
Alex's comments are definitely well-meaning, and in line with general recommendations. However, it ignores various factors you can deploy to help the cause. The foremost of these is weight. Admittedly you enter the category of "test pilot" perhaps, but I believe that Leadville is imminently doable in an Archer, even in the summer, if you plan in advance.
Do go early in the morning when density altitude is lowest. From Denver, plan the southern route up through South Park and over to Buena Vista and then up the valley from the South. Keep the plane as light as possible, so no more than minimum fuel/people.
I haven't done this myself yet, but my good friend (and POS lurker!) Ed Larkin has done this in his 1963 C172 with only 145hp, in July of last year. So with 180hp in an Archer I believe it's possible with the proper planning and precautions.
(Whoops! Just realized Alex's post was aimed at a Cherokee 140 driver, in which case I'm inclined to agree with him. But if it's possible in a 45 year old C172, maybe in a Cherokee 140 as well!)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2008 04:02PM by Jeff S.
I think Alex is right on unless the objective is to prove that you can do it in which case the mission doesn't justify taking passengers. No reason to have their anxiety over weather, equipment capabilities or pilot limitations dilute the pleasure of the trip.
I flew commercial to Colorado Springs this winter, rented a car and drove up route 24 through Manitou Springs, Woodland Park, Florissant, bore left on the road to Buena Vista and on to Leadville. It's just as beautiful from the road and only took me about 4.5 hrs. with snow on the roads.
Or, if you have to fly the family up , why not rent the right equipment at COS and leave the Cherokee 140 parked at the FBO?
On the subject of Leadville, when I was looking for mountain courses in the region, I checked out their website. The school there has two 172s available for training. Not sure which engines they have, but they appeared to be older. I'm sure they exercise care in picking the conditions they're willing to fly in, though.
Steve, you just described what I consider my old stompin' grounds. Although I grew up in Wichita, KS, I used to go to camp every summer in Florissant, and I still know that territory like the back of my hand. Out of Florissant, past Crystal Peak, up over Wilkerson Pass, through South Park and over Trout Creek pass into "Byoonie." Then right along the Collegiate Range into Leadville. Makes me wistful just thinking about it.
So it's definitely on my agenda to fly my butt out of Georgia sometime and do that route by air, hopefully someday soon. This darn work stuff keeps getting in the way!
Hear you, Jeff, hear you--. My Mom and Dad have a nice all-weather cabin between Florissant and Cripple Creek. It's so nice I can't bring myself to accept buying an airplane I could afford simply because it wouldnt't be able to get me accross the Rockies from San Diego at least a couple of times a year.
In a way, I think Donn is in the same boat because he has a date certain he has to be in Leadville. If a trip could be made without fitting into too tight a schedule, it would be great to puddle jump in a Warrior through those passes but you can't afford to let your schedule dictate when you fly. For me, I think of going via Bryce Canyon, Gunnison, Crested Butte or Montrose and over those same passes in the reverse direction. I guess a lot of folks will do just that this summer and I envy every one of them.
Gonna get checked out in a Malibu this Fall though; that's my goal.
I would agree. I live in colorado and have flown out of leadville in the summer . On a warm day in a cessna 182 with 2 people and half fuel the climb out is often less than 300 feet per minite. While it probably could be done on a cool morming one person and minimal fuel in a 140 it seems like a lot of extra risk for little gain.
I'm in a club in Albuquerque that has a 1965 pa-28-180C. We recently had a new engine put in by Western Skyways in Montrose, Colorado. The pilot that brought it down teaches mountain flying out of Montrose. I flew him back up to Montrose and was very impressed. His name is Dennis Duggan. His number is (970) 209-4599.
I went out the other day when it was 91 degrees and flew my Cherokee with my wife and full fuel from Albuquerque over a volcano that we have here near Jemez NM. The Cherokee climbed to 14,200 feet albeit it took about 45 minutes to get there.As long as you have time to climb our 180HP Cherokees/Archers do quite well here in the mountains.
I'm planing a trip to Creed Colorado here in July and will fly over Wolf Creek pass at a minimum of 12,500 feet, the Mineral airport (Creed) is at 8,600 feet and I plan to follow the advice of more experienced mountain fliers, no flying between the hours of 10AM and 4PM due to thermals and density issues.
