I'm finishing up my Canadian PPL, and have started looking at buying my first plane.
All my training has been done on C172's M/N, though a lot of the privately owned planes at my flying club are Pipers.
I've stumbled upon a 1975 PA-28-151 that I'm finding myself very interested in, notably the new avionics and interior from 2006, and the 860HR SMOH and ~2200 total airframe times.
Since this is my first purchase, I'm doing some heavy research, and am wondering what the Piper community would has to say about transitioning from C172's to Pipers, especially to an inexperienced pilot, and first time buyer?
I've noticed the stall and therefore landing speeds are higher, which should be interesting to get used to, but doesn't worry me.
The thing that I'm not so sure about is the low wing and increased complexity of the fuel system and no "both" fuel tank selection. How much of a difference does it really make from an ownership perspective?
Also, am I to understand the flaps are not electric?
The landing gear is somewhat different too ... with actual shock absorbers/oleos ... How does that impact soft field operations?
And of course, I'm curious as to the general handling of the aircraft, I'm told the C172s are incredibly easy and forgiving ... so how would this Warrior compare? Am I going to find adapting to it "hard" somehow?
I'll probably get the Piper owners at my club to chime in on all this, and maybe show me their A/C and tak eme up for a ride, but the more input I get, the better :)
Well -I'll be the first to chime in but you'll get lots of good advice here.
The Warrior is an excellent first airplane and a very easy transition from a Cessna. I liked the Warrior the very first time I flew one, and purchased my '74 model about 3 mouths later. I actually found it far easier to fly and land than the 172's. The only thing I would have done differently is to buy a lower time airframe with upgraded avionics - like you are considering.
There are no issues with stall - the plane simply mushes and you will not see the rapid wing drop as the Cessna will do if your feet aren't on the pedals.
The low wing provides excellent visibility while flying in the pattern (circuit), and the fuel tank switching is an easy no brainer that you can learn quickly. Non-electric flaps are awesome - just pull the lever and they're instantly up or down. No worries if you have an electrical failure. The gas charge strut landing gear is also very cool - you will not bounce on slightly bad landings, and if needed you can fly it down to the pavement and plant it firmly on the ground without bouncing all over the place. As far as handling goes, it is agile and smooth, probably not much different than a 172.
Again - the 151 is a very good choice. Be sure to get a good pre-buy inspection and check all the logs and AD's.
Congrats on your PPL. You should be very proud of your accomplishment.
Welcome and come on in ... the water's fine in a Piper. I, too, had most of my time in Cessnas and happened to stumble upon great Piper Cherokee 180 and it is my first plane.
The differences between the Cessna and Piper are quickly overcome and you will probably get very used to the view and handling of a low-wing as well as the Pipers stability and agility in flight. Maintenance is straighforward too.
Now, as for the flaps - man, you will LOVE the manual flaps - easy to deploy, instantly where YOU want them, and the same regarding retraction.
Regarding the no "both" detent for the fuel - you will get over that in the first or second flight - it is almost a no-brainer.
Forgiving and easy to fly - HELL yes! You will be amazed.
If you found a nice plane with everything you said ... "LEAN toward it" but don't commit until you get a very good pre-buy and do exactly what you are doing now - gathering info. I think you are very smart to look for a good plane with very good avionics.
If you does seem like this is the plane for you - you might want to combine a pre-buy with the annual. See if you can get the seller to include it (but YOU pick out the A/P - do NOT under any circumstances use the seller's A/P) and have a pre-buy pro - come in while the plane is apart and "your" A/P is learning about it also. If anything is wrong - you'll know and can decide whether to make a lower offer, see if the owner will fix it or just say thank you and pay for the pre-buy. If at all possible - try and do an owner assisted annual - you will really get to learn about the plane. If the seller won't pick-up the entire tab - offer to split it and he pays for anything wrong. if he won't do that - sigh and then walk away.
If all is well - you've got a checked-out plane, a new annual, and a smile on your face. oh, and be sure to go up with the mechanic as he "tests" the plane in the before and after mode of the annual. Helps you get a feel. If you are thinking about upgrading anything - the mechanic already has the plane apart (the owner payed for that part) and is a bit easier and cheaper for you. While the plane is apart - make sure you have all the cables and pulleys checked and rigged AND you may even want to use this time for VGs for even better low speed handling and probably lower stall speed - especially if you are thinking about grass and turf runways.
On this subject - there is a very interesting article on tricyle airplanes and the backwoods airstrips. BLUF - yes, you can use them - judicicously and with practice. It is just different. If you are really into that - find a plane with the HORTON STOL kit - but I wouldn't worry about that on your first plane. Just go fly, and enjoy and go places with your family.
Again, congrats on your PPL, welcome to the club of owners, and I don't think you will find a better more helpful and knowledgable group of people than these guys and gals in POS. AND you will love your Piper.
Yes, let us rejoice for the sheep that was once lost but now is found.
Some Cessnas (not all) have those "guess again" flaps, where you push the handle down but there is no detent so you look at the indicator and adjust as necessary. I find the manual flaps to be preferable.
As for having no "both" setting for the tanks, yes that is a factor. You must remember to switch. But that is offset by the fact that you can more easily check the fuel level during pre-flight.
Cessnas are easier to get in and out of. And if it's raining the high wing allows you to open the door and get out while the rain falls mainly on the plane.
Ken, thanks for elaborating on Mike's Biblical reference. (I assume that's what you were doing.)
JF, I won't bother echoing all the comments previously, but I share the sentiments. You'll have no trouble. As you can see from my avatar, I'm flying a Warrior ('76) and it is my first plane. I didn't learn in Cessnas, but I've flown a few hours in them so here are my observations.
On the subject of fuel tank switching, if the advanced avionics that you speak of include a G430 of any variety, simply program a message to come on every 30 minutes and remind you to switch tanks. That's the way I have mine set up, and it's a good gentle reminder. Other systems may have a similar functionality so look for it.
You'll notice that Warriors will have easier landing characteristics because you'll get less float if you're coming in higher than recommended speeds. You can't blow in at 80KTS on the numbers and put her right down, but you won't eat up half the runway if you come in at 70. The manual flaps really do help you manage speed and altitude easily.
Depending on what model of C172 you've been flying, you may notice the Warrior has better climb and cruise speeds. But that really will depend on what you're used to. My Warrior has the 160hp engine, flap gap/wing root seals, and the prop is pitched to 60", so I can true out at 120 KTAS even at lower altitudes like 3500'.
Jeff - Yes, I was responding to Mike's clever reference. My response would have made more sense had I hit "Enter" before Martin did.
I know this is heresy to some, but I believe the main factors in selecting a single engine 4 seater are engine hours, airframe hours, and avionics. Whether it's a Cessna or a Piper is of secondary importance.
Ken, I would generally agree with your last point as to differences between makers. But one thing I would add is that for the first-time buyer of a used airplane, you can often get more for your money in a Piper than a Cessna.
That is to say that market demand for Cessnas keeps an equivalent C172(in terms of air frame and engine time, and avionics) priced higher than a Warrior or similar Piper. That was certainly my experience as I shopped for my first bird, and it was one of the reasons I chose the Warrior.
The other being that my personal bias really is toward the low-wing look for no reason other than pure aesthetics.
Jeff - I thing you're right about Cessna vs Piper market prices. I agree with the aesthetics too. Another qualification would be that you'd have to compare equivalent models, HP, etc.
I also learned in a C-172 (1964 model with 145 hp) many moons ago and then began flying different makes and models, including PA-28s. The Pipers have a little better performance (maybe not against the recent C-172s), and they are definitely easier to land and handle much better in a crosswind. I agree with the others above on the other points re: flaps, etc.
You get used to the fuel tank switching quickly on a cross-country as one wing gets heavy if you don't switch, which is noticeable. I used to switch tanks once per hour (L - one hour, R - two hours, L - one hour), but now switch every half hour when using an autopilot (new).
The PA-28 is wider than the C-172 and I like the extra elbow room. Overall, I think the PA-28s are less expensive to operate as the C-172 is more complex (more parts).
Hope you choose a Piper...they are great airplanes.
Am I the only one who got Ken's "My Fair Lady" reference (my wife will be SO proud of me).
Anyway, most of the important points have been made already. Like the others, I love the manual flaps. They are not quite the "barn doors" that the Cessna has and the resulting drag has always felt a bit more modest to me.
Per Jeff's comment, Cherokees are fine on the turf with one caveat - whenever the grass got a little long at my old home airport, I usually needed to spend time cleaning dried grass off the bottom of my left wing, an annoyance that the high wing taildragger guys never had to deal with. (The trick is to soak it first, let it soften a bit, and then wipe away)
As others have said, the handling of a Warrior will be comfortable for someone used to a 172. If you were to jump into an older straight wing Cherokee, there would be a little more for you to adjust to.
The best way to compare? Fly one and see what you think. We can rationalize all day, but sometimes one just feels a little more "right" than the other.
I too will echo all the positive comments previously posted here. I purchased a PA-28-140 half way through my training. I started on a C172 and then switched about half way.
The fuel selector switch is not a problem. A good habit to get into is to switch it about 30 minutes into the flight and every hour after that. this keeps the plane reasonably balanced. You will not forget to switch as you will definitely notice the imbalance after awhile and will want to switch to bleed weight off the full side.
Another benefit to the switched tank as opposed to the "both" position: if you ever do get careless and the tank you're on goes dry, you always have the option of switching tanks to get started again. If you run em dry in a plane with it set on "both" . . . you're out of luck my friend.
With the low wing it is far easier to refuel and check the fuel level. There are also tabs in the tanks so you can fill them to either 18 gallons or 25 gallons (full) per side, with an easy visual reference.
I have chronicled my complete training and aircraft purchase process on a website www.cfvla.net. You might find that interesting reading. I too am in Canada and got my PPL just a little less than a year ago.
Go Piper . . . you'll love it!
----------------------------
Jim Ewing
1966 PA-28 140, C-FVLA
www.cfvla.net
I go my PPL last year in a 2004 Cessna 172SP and went directly from it to a Cherokee 235. The transition from Cessna to Piper is a non-issue, it should not enter into your decision. The Piper Warrior and Cherokee have also been used as trainers, they are easy to fly and also very forgiving.
Piper and Cessna both have their advantages, it is a matter of what is most important to you. I will second the Jeff S. statement that you will get more airplane for the money with a Piper. The prices for the Cessna 172/182 are inflated because many of us take our lessons in them and wonder as you have, if the transition is difficult.
Probably specific to us but we found the warrior fit us better. Being short, in the Cessna I needed to sit on a oillow and have one behind. In the warrior, just 1 under. My wife's experience with small aircraft prior to starting flying was skydiving so to her at that point the high wing WAS an airplane (Cessna's the most common jump ship). Not hard to make the transition though.
The requirement for fuel switching probably actually enhances safety. It makes you check it for one thing. One of the jump pilots tried to fly home to New Orleans over lake Pontchartrain after leaving his plane for a while at the DZ where several guys flew it but of course never filled it. Ran out of gas over the middle of the lake and landed on the causeway. Had he been switching instead of on both (and i believe the C172 POH recommends that but no one ever does) he might have still had gas in 1 wing when the engine quit and might have then been able to make the 180 back to the north shore on the remaining gas.
I too trained in Cessnas and had about 200 hrs in them. I them flew for 2 hrs in a Piper and immediately bought one, that was 10 years ago. That tell you how I felt?
As for the mechanical flaps (you should see what can happen if one Cessna flap does not deploy like the other or worse yet if it intefers with an aileron,,,,,,, maybe you shouldn't) and etc. The Piper is actually a simpler plane from that and other respects, it is easier to service (annual). As for the oleo struts they are great and easy to service (not needed often) and will handle turf fields just fine. Only caution I would offer, is if you tend to use short turf fields, be careful with your loading.
Basically they all fly the same, left is left, right is right, and then up and down is the same, they're just a bit different and it's what you like. Me I love my '74 PA28-151 (Arch Warrior)
With around 28,000 hrs and time in a couple of hundred airplanes, including all of the Cessna's and Pipers, I agree 100% with the previous posts - get the Piper. More bang for the buck than a Cessna, which are fine airplanes, but higher priced than Pipers for the same performance.
The transition is negligible. Crosswinds are easier in a Piper, or should I say more forgiving of poor technique, and low the wing seems to ride any turbulence better. Interior room also seems to be better than a 172. The only drawback is visiblility down, but that's what knife-edge flight is for!!
Although I of course wouldn't expect too many people to be putting down Pipers around here, every single post had either a little or a lot of useful information for me, and is definitely contributing greatly to my decision making.
This Piper I'm looking at is actually not cheap, but that's mostly due to new interior, avionics, other things, all the covers and the tow bar, GPS, etc ... Also in Canada A/C tend to be more expensive than their US counterparts, but I'm willing to swallow the bullet for the ease of the transaction and having a previous owner nearby.
Right now I'm about 99% decided on it, I just have to make sure I can afford it :) If any Canadians can point me to A/C financing or insurance (Other than the obvious big banks), I'd love to get some thoughts on that.
The sitting position looks quite different ... or maybe the windshield is bigger? I'm just saying that based on seeing how the instruments are laid out ... the avionics stack is much shorter (vertically) than in the C172's, forcing more avionics potentially to the right (In front of the passenger/co-pilot), which theoretically bugs me to no end, but whatever, something I'll get used to ...
Also, what's this about a trim control being overhead? And I just realized there's only one door ... not super convenient, especially since it's passenger side?!
All in all, excellent very helpful feedback, thanks a lot everyone!
Oh and Jim, thanks for the web site! I'll be sure to go through it!
Could be, sure hope so ... I saw something about "older" ones having this, but when you're talking about a model line that spans decades, it's hard to know what is "old" :)
The trim overhead - I thought that was odd, too. An anachronism. What I like to do - is think of myself as flying the big iron and that is the overhead panel. Surprisingly - once you get used to the overhead - it doesn't make a difference.
The single door - yeah - I wish there were two - but - it is also a bit quieter (more quiet?). Also less to go wrong in flight.
A Piper IS different - but not worse - just different. Besides - it'll be YOUR airplane and you will love it and all of its excentricities. Yet, another reason to do the owner assisted annual - you will see them first hand and know what does what and why on YOUR airplane.
Good luck, from the few nuggets you provided us about your potential airplane - it sounds like a winner and a plane you'll love.
A 1975 PA28-151 is definetly a Warrior. The first Warriors were '74 models and all of them have the trim wheel located between the seats. It was originally a 150 hp plane ie. the 151 although, it may have been upgraded to a 160 or 180 hp model
I too am a Cessna trained, Piper owner, an Arrow. One characteristic mentioned earlier is visibility in turns. This was something I really appreciated the first time I flew a Piper. You will especially appreciate it when in the pattern. I agree with all the other advantages mentioned earlier. I would like to add a comment about the landing gear. Being oleo struts you will notice landings will "feel" harder because the initial contact the oleos do not soften the landing initially. It's a characteristic of liquid shock absorbers. It's like slapping water, initial contact is hard but after that it yields. Therefore, I think the oleo landing gear forces you to be more attentive on landings, which is a good thing.
In closing, I much prefer the Piper. I think you will too. Good luck.
A 1975 PA28-151 is definitly a Warrior. The first Warriors were '74 models and all of them have the trim wheel located between the seats. It was originally a 150 hp plane ie. the 151 although, it may have been upgraded to a 160 or 180 hp model
Yup, it's a 150HP Which to me right now means something like a C172M ... I've flown 1976 ones which are also 150HP, so I've got a good idea of the power side of things already. I also fly the N's with 160HP and actually like that better, the extra "oumf" is nice, and it seems makes it a liiiiitle bit more efficient on fuel (Off the top of my head, I'd need to check the POH's to confirm), but it's not a big deal.
On that topic, is there a reference of STC's for a particular model airplane? things like different engines that could be put on eventually notably, or anything else of interest? With the oil issues these days, I expect diesel/JetA/1 engines could become more popular (at least outside the states) ... Both Cessna and Diamond are now making TDI aircraft. Of course the engines are heavier :(
Still, as a general curiosity, and to know how much future flexibility there is with particular aircraft, is there an STC reference?
Just as a quick note, the O-320 150 hp engine can be converted to an O-320 160 hp engine fairly easily, and REALATIVLY inexpensive (pistons, wrist pins and carburator mod best I remember). Powerflow exhasut systems are NOT available for the 151 thru 181 seriers Pipers and most probably never will be. There is a STC available to change to an O-360 A4M engine which is 180 hp. This can be expensive depending on how one completes the conversion. Basically it makes the plane an Archer PA28-181, hence the name Arch-Warrior.
Well any such work would be done on the next MOH anyways ... I've seen in a few places now that the 150/160 difference wouldn't really improve performance that much (Including somewhere in these forums I think) ... So I'm not sure why one would do it?
So I'll have 1200 hours of flying to think about it :) But it's nice to know the options/flexibility I have for the future as far as engines and avionics especially.
If you haven't got enough response yet then here are my thoughts. I flew Cessna for 3 years and then last fall purchased my firts plane. A 1972 PA28-140. I was very concerned about the differences between the two types, especially NO toe brakes and the overhead trim. We picked the plane up in Frederickton NB and after only 2 hours in the plane it was like I hade been there forever.
I found the low wing much more stable than the Cessna in flight which allows for more time doing flight management. Keep a bit of power on for the landings and you will ace them in no time.
I am flying out of a grass strip and my only complaint is the performance of the 150. We have a 2300' strip north of Toronto and I am a bit concerned that it may be close on a hot humid day.
Other than that I have now logged almost 50 hrs since last November and loving it.
Ah yes, I heard something again regarding the toe brakes ... Again something about "older models" not having them, but I wasn't sure whether a 1975 Warrior counted as "older" ... Of course I'm pretty sure my model wouldn't have the overhead trim, so I'm hopingt hat also means it has toe brakes ... not having them would be a little disconserting ...
J.F. - A 1975 Warrior will have a Cessna-style trim wheel on the floor between the seats. According to the information I have, the trim control was changed from the ceiling to the floor in 1968, around the same time that the T-handle throttle quadrant was introduced.
As for the toe brakes, I used to fly a 1971 Cherokee that had them, so your Warrior probably will too. Either way, I'm not sure this is a big deal. I regularly fly with a guy who ran a flight school in the 70's and he uses the hand brake by habit and completely ignores the toe brakes. Of course, you lose differential braking, but you won't find yourself needing differential braking for steering as much as you did in the Cessna.
Speaking of this guy, he was giving me a BFR a couple years ago and right after asking me to give him a turn to the left he noted, "you learned to fly in a Cessna, didn't you?" When I nodded, he said he could tell because I looked over my shoulder in the direction of the turn first, started the turn, then looked over my other shoulder. Of course, this works great in the Cessna because you're lifting the wing on the outside of the turn out of your line of sight. In the Cherokee, you're blocking your line of sight with that outside wing in a turn and should check that direction before lifting the wing. I had been flying that Warrior for two years already and it never occurred to me that I was clearing my turns using habits formed in a high wing aircraft that did not make sense for the Warrior!
-- Chris
www.chrishouston.com
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2008 06:40PM by houston21481.
