I am working on my commercial ticket and have been working with an instructor doing the chandelles, lazy 8s, etc in my warrior.
Today we were doing some oral prep work and I got into some weight and balance issues.
The instructor did not notice, but I noticed, that the operating handbook says that chandelles, lazy 8s etc are supposed to be done in the utility category, entry speed of 124 MPH.
Well, got two issues with that - 1) the Warrior doesn't go 124 MPH and 2) put me, the instructor and gas in the tank and total weight exceeds 1950 lbs, the top of the utility category.
Now, I have done lots of training on these maneuvers in both mine and other warriors, and I see tons of warriors out there in flight training schools and think they all have this issue, but nobody picks up on it. What baffles me is a manuever like a lazy 8 is no where near as stressful on the airplane as say doing steep turns and say spirals, which is OK.
Anyway, I got to wondering, what is the significance in the POH of listing the limits of doing the commercial manevers by indicating the utility category and an entry speed of 124 MPH.
One thought me and the instructor had was that its OK to do the commercial maneuvers in a warrior in the normal category PROVIDED the entry speed was LESS than 124 MPH. But the POH is not that clear on the subject.
In the meantime, my training has come to a crashing , uh, sudden, halt.
I instructed my son in the commercial manauvers in our -161 Warrior. It should have the same limitations as your -151. Look at your POH, section 2 Limitations, Maneuver Limits. All commercial maneuvers are done in the normal configuration. The only time you would use the utility configuration is if you are going to exceed 60 degrees of bank and then only for the 3 manuvers listed.
As for entry speed, we used 111 kts (124mph). In your 151 you may have to do a shallow descent to get the speed.
My son took his checkride in an Arrow IV. The manuevers are done the same in both airplanes. Transition time was minimal. Good luck on your commercial.
Thanks for the tip, I found the 60 degree bank issue is actually a threshold in the FARs: by definition, a chandelle and the other commercial manuevers carried out at less than a 60 degree bank is a normal category maneuver for all airplanes of the single engine, less than 12,500 lbs class:
FAR Sec. 23.3 - Airplane categories.
(a) The normal category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less, and intended for nonacrobatic operation. Nonacrobatic operation includes:
(1) Any maneuver incident to normal flying;
(2) Stalls (except whip stalls); and
(3) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, in which the angle of bank is not more than 60 degrees
I have a Warrior (151) and noticed those limitations as well. But I think if you keep the fuel at the tabs or less (still plenty of fuel for a two-hour training mission) and get everything else out of the plane, you are easily in the Utility category. And this helps you get the speed you need too.
