I watched a Barry Schiff video recently about dealing with engine failure on climbout, the essence of which was to learn to do steep 180s at max glide with engine out. I thought about it a lot because KMYF in SD uses Rwys 28R/L about 95% of the time and it's solid commercial 1/4 mi off the upwind end and I've been sort of fatalistic about my chances if the Lyc. goes quiet. So, I modified my stall and turn series this morning, flying a PA-28-161, and did a couple of 180s at idle, entering trimmed up in level flight at 79 KIAS, maintaining 73 KIAS around the turn at 4500 feet in a 45 degree bank.
Both times I lost just under 200 ft. which was way better than I'd expected. Does this agree with anyone else's experience? Might it be a little more for the straight Hershey Bar wing? I think I'll try it again entering at 63 KIAS and see if it changes anything and, if not, start maintaining Vx on climbout until 300' AGL so I have a fighting chance if I lose the mill.
Worst case scenario, I figure reversing and crashing into the chainlink perimeter fence would be better than going into a building and maybe taking out some innocent people. Definitely going to keep it part of my practice routine, regardless.
Would really like to hear someone else's thoughts.
Steve,
My instructor taught me sort of a modified chandelle to return to the airport. Climb at idle, turn with hard rudder, dive before stall then level out.Cool manuever and it costs 500 feet. Did it over and it was the same result...500 ft. Of course that was in the 172. haven't got there yet in the Piper. Off our runway 30, is an industrial complex straight ahead, highway 99 to the left, highway 198 to the right. It's a chore to find the right place to set her down if she goes silent but there are options I guess depending on altitude at the time of silencio...
500' is a little closer to what I expected to get. I will definitely work on accumulating more hard data before I can say for sure. But there really aren't any good emergency options at less than 500' for Rwys 28 at Montgomery. That's our craven City government in SD. They were actually trying to allow an office building that was a couple of stories past the FAA limit, right next to the field. Subject for another post, though.
Steve,
I often wonder what people are thinking when they erect homes and buildings right past an airport runway. At a local airport KHJO, as as soon as you depart runway 32, you are crossing over Hwy 198 into new housing development that has a noise abatement policy. You're doing a 45 degree bank at about 600 AGL to avoid the new housing. If all went south, there are not alot of options expect the two-lane freeway...hope traffic is light!
Hmm. If that's your experience and you can practice that and get it down pat, and be prepared to do it in a real emergency, then more power to you (pun intended!). But everything I've ever read is that this is the absolute riskiest maneuver in general aviation, and the one that leads to the most fatalities.
The chances of entering a stall spin when that engine really stops are just very high, especially when the extra adrenaline of being in a true emergency kicks in (the ground really is a lot more forbidding at 400' than at 3000') and you try to stretch it just that little bit.
All the crash data shows that if you maintain control all the way to the ground, even if you have to aim between two buildings, your chances of survival are much better. Once that engine quits at anything less than 1000', I will be worried about my life, and let the insurance company worry about the airplane.
Here's hoping neither one of us ever has to test this theory!
Jeff, thanks for your input. Obviously, I need a lot more data before making this an actual plan and that's what I'm trying to do here. In addition to practicing on my own and making sure it's realistic, I was going to talk it over again with my CFI, who's last word to me as I recall was I probably could make it with 500' AGL. Any idea where you might have seen something on this?
Ditto about that hope but my home field isn't going to forgive me for hoping. I even went over aerial photos of the field environs and confirmed there's no place to set her down off the west runway.
Keep in mind that a turn back to the airport isn't a 180. If you are close to the airport when the engine quits, it's more like a 270 followed by a 90 in the other direction. In other words, you are likely to lose about the same altitude as in a 360 degree climbing turn -- twice the loss of a 180.
JimC
Steve, I was going to follow up with the same point Jim just made. It's not a 180 at all, unless you've got a wide grass field alongside the airport you can use.
But as to the source for statistics, check out the latest Nall report and I think there's some data in there. I can't point to anything specific I remember, but this info shows up frequently in Aviation Safety magazine, as well as the NTSB accident reports. Just go through the monthly list of accidents and read the ones that say "fatal" next to them. You see a lot of classic stall/spin scenarios, of which the turnback is prominent.
As my own final data point, I've tried this many times in X-Plane with a Warrior configured exactly like my own. I know that any simulator isn't perfect, but X-Plane is pretty darn good, and I have yet to make a successful turnback from takeoff at anything less than 1000' AGL.
I recently saw some statistics about the "return to the airport" maneuver, and I believe it was on Bob Miller's "Over the Airwaves" e-publication (comes out monthly). You might want to contact Bob and see if he can send you this info...very interesting. Also, Bob's publication is all about safety and making the best use of general aviation aircraft. I can recommend it as good reading. He'd be glad to add you to his email list. See the latest publication at:
I've had two engine outs over the years. One on takeoff in a J3. I was about 400 feet above ground, so did a wingover (not a horizontal turn) and landed going the other direction on the runway I'd just taken off from. The other was in a Cherokee from a height of about 1400 feet above ground level. That time, there was no airstrip about, so I landed in a pasture.
JimC
