http://forums.piperowner.org/list/1 EN Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:43:13 -0500 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:43:13 -0500 General Discussion Phorum 5.1.25 60 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143792#msg-143792 PilotKris [img]http://wwwcache.wral.com/asset/news/national_world/national/2010/03/16/7239853/f15483ad-6e3b-49bf-b9cc-a249a6f2de79_Plane_Kills_Beachgoer.sff-512x300.jpg[/img]

[i]"Planes like this sink like a rock,"[/i] she said.

Doesn't look like it's sinking either...]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143792#msg-143792 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:43:13 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143503/143790#msg-143790 Gimble General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143503/143790#msg-143790 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:34:46 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143503/143789#msg-143789 Gimble -------------------------------------------------------
> It's no big deal in 200 hours its amounted to a whopping 1 gallon.

Strange, for the PA-32 you're supposed to drain via the belly sump the mains 11 seconds per side, the tips 4 seconds per side, as well as the sumps under the wings. I would estimate that it's between 12-24 oz. per flight : probably much closer to 24 than to 12.

That's a gallon every 5-10 flights. The only options I can think of using the gas in would be (1) lawnmower (which I probably use up maybe 2 gallons per year) and (2) motorcycle, which apparently is illegal if not dangerous.

In my previous plane ( C177 ) there were two wing sumps and a belly sump, and the amount of fuel was negligable. Following procedures on the PA32 is a different story.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143503/143789#msg-143789 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:34:04 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143788#msg-143788 Chris -------------------------------------------------------
> I feel this pilot should have ditched it in the water and avoided
> the chance of hurting anytone on the beach.
>
> The lady quoted in the story... Schiavo is a
> pretty smart woman who usually gets her facts
> right. I think she used to be the FAA's inspector
> general or something like that, and she's normally
> right on teh money.

I agree with you that he should have tried to land in the water perhaps.

I also agree that Schiavo is a smart woman but to say that the pilot should have look out of the small window and yell that's a dumb statement coming from a smart woman.

Come on now people.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143788#msg-143788 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:23:43 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143787#msg-143787 pat General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143787#msg-143787 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:07:10 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143784#msg-143784 PilotKris
"She has represented many of the families who have sued the U.S. airlines involved in the 9/11 terrorist attacks."


Aviation's version of Gloria Allred?]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143784#msg-143784 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:08:11 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143783#msg-143783 Mr Helpful -------------------------------------------------------
> I think we need a horn installed on planes, I know
> it would come in handy in some places on the ramp.
>
>
>

Something like this is handy to have in the plane, esp. on the ramp.
http://www.amazon.com/SeaSense-AIR-HORN-LARGE-50074005/dp/B001BYD5O2/ref=pd_sim_sg_3]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143783#msg-143783 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:52:47 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143782#msg-143782 Henry VI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Schiavo]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143782#msg-143782 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:48:17 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143781#msg-143781 KEN G General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143781#msg-143781 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:31:15 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/140140/143780#msg-143780 ArrowDriver General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/140140/143780#msg-143780 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:27:34 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143676/143777#msg-143777 PilotKris -------------------------------------------------------
[i]> I'm curious if it's PMA and if not why the
> suggestion was even published.[/i]

Who does the publisher/editor use to proof read the articles and what is their aviation expertise?

I noticed an error in the March issue and sent a letter to the editor and also made a posting in the forum. Still no reply...
http://forums.piperowner.org/read/32/142761

PilotKris]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143676/143777#msg-143777 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:48:59 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143775#msg-143775 PaulR
Even yelling out of the small window wouldn't have prevented this accident since the jogger had headphones on. I guess she just needed to look smart in front of the press.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143775#msg-143775 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:34:03 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143503/143774#msg-143774 PilotKris -------------------------------------------------------
>
[i]> Is that what this is about - you're looking for
> someone to take responsibility for your accident?
> Of course you're on your own - just like all the
> other thousands of decisions you make each
> flight.
>
> If culpability is what you have in mind when you
> fly (who'm I gonna blame if this goes sour?), then
> by all means follow the POH. If something goes
> wrong, then you'll have been following the "rules"
> so if you survive, you'll have someone to sue.
> And if you don't, well, you'll still be "right"!
> Good for you![/i]


What an idiotic statement.



Flying is all about risk management.

It is a Pilots responsibility to identify, analyze, and mitigate as much as possible the risks involved. When doing that, it is most useful to seek the advice of experts. There is no greater authority on the operation of the aircraft and it's systems than the designers and manufactures of those systems (OEMs).

I would consider the opinion of someone trying to sell me their product (and replacement parts) biased (at best) and should be considered with a healthy dose of skepticism especially if it involves procedures contrary to the OEMs.

Anyone making up their own procedures (especially ones using non-aviation grade products) need to be VERY careful and should welcome criticism of the procedure as it might uncover deficiencies that had not been previously considered.

PilotKris]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143503/143774#msg-143774 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:17:13 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/141549/143771#msg-143771 wbharms
That said, it was a little pricey. Before the Knots2U STC for the cowl, it was a bit over $550 (wingtip only). Now it is about $750. My A&P said the install wasn't too bad.

It mounts in a white frame that sits over the lower cowling. Since my plane is red and white, I have decided to leave it white for now.

Bill]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/141549/143771#msg-143771 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:32:32 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143770#msg-143770 Leigh General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143770#msg-143770 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:32:14 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143767#msg-143767 PropFan General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143767#msg-143767 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:39:13 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143761#msg-143761 KEN G General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143761#msg-143761 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:03:57 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143758#msg-143758 GM
Thank you Ms. Schiavo. It's great to have individuals like you working for the NTSB. Maybe now we should all be required to install emergency megaphones near the nose wheels on all aircraft in case we should encounter a forced landing.

Then too, as safety experts warn, when jogging alone, don't wear headphones or ear buds so you can hear sounds of your near vicinity. Ms. Schiavo, how would the jogger hear the pilot "yelling" out his small window anyway?]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143758#msg-143758 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:21:18 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143757#msg-143757 flyguydon General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143757#msg-143757 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:01:25 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143756#msg-143756 Remy
The lady quoted in the story... Schiavo is a pretty smart woman who usually gets her facts right. I think she used to be the FAA's inspector general or something like that, and she's normally right on teh money.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143756#msg-143756 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 05:37:43 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143753#msg-143753 JimC
In a J3 with the engine running, we often call out to folks below. They can hear us and shout back. That doesn't mean that a shout from above would be perceived as coming from above though, and it may be unlikely that it would have attracted the jogger's attention.

I feel the utmost sympathy for everyone that was affected by the accident.
JimC]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143753#msg-143753 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:25:02 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143488/143752#msg-143752 JimC JimC]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143488/143752#msg-143752 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:16:33 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/142988/143751#msg-143751 CaptKirk
Kirk out.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/142988/143751#msg-143751 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 21:27:08 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143503/143749#msg-143749 justin ']]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143503/143749#msg-143749 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:57:23 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143488/143747#msg-143747 PilotPete
As I said, perhaps the older versions had that problem, but certainly with the current design, that is just not possible (unless it isn't assembled correctly). I remember looking at that when I looked inside a unit, because I had heard about it and the company was denying it, so I was very curious. I forget exactly what holds it in place (a set screw?), but I remember having to undo something to get the pin to come out of it's recess.

But then it saw it's shadow, and you know what that means!]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143488/143747#msg-143747 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:51:43 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143746#msg-143746 PaulR
[i]"Even with oil smeared on the windshield, Schiavo says the pilot should have been able to see through a small window on the side of the plane and possibly yell out to anyone below. Still, there may have been little time to try to avoid hitting the jogger, she said."[/i]

The shocking parts was her saying through the small window on the side of the plane they could have possibly yell out to anyone below!!! Ya Right...


HILTON HEAD ISLAND, S.C. (AP) — Robert Gary Jones was a pharmaceutical salesman on a business trip, looking forward to getting home to celebrate his daughter's third birthday. He was enjoying a moment to himself on this resort island, jogging on the beach and listening to his iPod.

Officials say the Woodstock, Ga., man neither saw nor heard what struck him from behind Monday evening: A single-engine plane making an emergency landing.

The Lancair IV-P aircraft, which can be built from a kit, had lost its propeller and was "basically gliding" as it hit and instantly killed Jones, said Ed Allen, the coroner for Beaufort County on the South Carolina coast.

"There's no noise," said aviation expert Mary Schiavo, a former inspector general for the National Transportation Safety Board. "So the jogger, with his ear buds in, and the plane without an engine, you're basically a stealth aircraft. Who would expect to look up?"

The pilot, Edward I. Smith of Chesapeake, Va., and his lone passenger both walked away from the crash landing near the Hilton Head Marriott Resort and Spa.

Marshall Clary was sitting in his home office overlooking the beach when the crash happened about 6:10 p.m. He said he heard nothing when the plane hit Jones and didn't realize something was wrong until he heard emergency helicopters overhead a short time later.

From his back deck, he saw the plane in the water about 100 yards from where emergency responders used a sheet to cover the bloodied body of a man wearing jogging shorts.

Jones, a 38-year-old salesman for pharmaceutical company GlaxoSmithKline, was in Hilton Head on a business trip and was looking forward to returning home for his daughter's birthday Wednesday, his mother said.

Pauline Jones, of Dunedin, Fla., described him as "great son, a wonderful husband," She said he lived in the northern Atlanta suburbs with his wife, Jennifer, their daughter and a 5-year-old son.

"I was never so shocked in all my life," Pauline Jones said, her voice shaking.

"They say that God only gives you what you can handle. I said, 'You know what, I've reached my max.'"

The plane took off from Orlando, Fla., at 4:45 p.m. Monday and was en route to Virginia when it started leaking oil at about 13,000 feet, said Joheida Fister, spokeswoman for Beaufort County fire and rescue.

Fister said the pilot determined he couldn't make it to Hilton Head Airport. He told authorities oil on the windshield blocked his vision and the propeller had come off, forcing him to attempt a landing on the beach.

Smith confirmed he was flying the plane when he returned to the scene Tuesday, when the four-seater aircraft was hoisted onto a trailer hitched to a pickup truck and towed from beach. Speaking in a subdued voice, Smith said he didn't want to talk about the crash.

"I've got a lot of issues going on right now," Smith said. "I've got a plane that's all torn up. And I've got a young man that I killed."

Authorities did not identify the passenger who was flying with Smith.

The Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board were investigating, Fister said.

NTSB spokesman Keith Holloway said no cause had been determined for the crash. He said the plane was being transported to Virginia, where investigators would inspect it. Holloway said interviews would also be conducted with the pilot and any witnesses.

"We don't know what occurred, especially since we haven't actually examined the aircraft," Holloway said. "We are still gathering facts."

An FAA spokeswoman referred inquiries to the NTSB.

Schiavo, the former NTSB official, said Smith made the right choice in landing on the beach rather than attempting a water landing. The aircraft likely wasn't carrying flotation equipment.

"Planes like this sink like a rock," she said.

Even with oil smeared on the windshield, Schiavo says the pilot should have been able to see through a small window on the side of the plane and possibly yell out to anyone below. Still, there may have been little time to try to avoid hitting the jogger, she said.

The airplane model that killed Jones has a turbine engine, can be built from a kit and can fly up to 370 mph, according to the Lancair Web site. The "fastbuild kit" for the IV-P model, which has a pressurized cabin, is listed as costing $129,000 and is "fully FAA approved," the site says.

The plane "could be easily built in one's home shop" and "has proven over the years to be very safe, reliable and extremely low in maintenance," the site says.

Joseph Bartels, chief executive officer of Lancair International, the Oregon-based company that produces the aircraft kits, said Tuesday that the kit produces a "light, fast and strong aircraft."

"This particular aircraft is one of about 1,000 sold either as kits or completed," Bartels said, though he added he had no specific knowledge about the airplane that had crashed. He said the firm does not produce the engine, which is purchased separately, he said.

Bartels, who had seen online news photos of the damaged plane, called the landing "miraculous" given the damage to it, but also expressed sorrow at the deadly outcome.

Copyright 2010 Associated Press. All rights reserved.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143746/143746#msg-143746 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:25:31 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/142988/143745#msg-143745 Frank L As long as they have the proper airplane license - business license etc I think it would be great. I am sure FBO's have clients that will use them no matter what - equally I am sure some would not use their local FBO.

Frank]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/142988/143745#msg-143745 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:19:07 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143488/143743#msg-143743 JimC
A friend has one in a Six. Steel screwdriver got too close to it while removing an adjacent instrument. Locked it up so that it wouldn't turn. Took it apart and reset it. Was OK thereafter.

Mine has had no problems. I really like it in the panel.
JimC]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/143488/143743#msg-143743 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:52:13 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/142988/143742#msg-143742 CaptKirk
Kirk out.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/142988/143742#msg-143742 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:15:34 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/142988/143741#msg-143741 CaptKirk
1. The CFI who maintains an office at the mall, but an aircraft in a leased hanger.

2. The roaming gnome mechanic who works out of his truck.

3. The interior shop that does both autos and airplanes and needs access to airplanes at the airport.

4. The independent aircraft detailer.

Also, the bill does not address use of "minimum standards" to block competitors from operating at airports. At my airport, anyone looking to sell fuel would have to offer 24/7 service, sell both Jet A and 100LL and maintain at least 6000 gal tanks. In other words, no one would bother.

We need more bills.

Surprisingly, even AOPA is towing the minimum standards and TTF lines!?

Call AOPA and tell them to wake up and get on the proper side of this issue.

Kirk out.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/142988/143741#msg-143741 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:14:35 -0500