http://forums.piperowner.org/list/1 EN Sun, 11 May 2008 22:05:14 -0500 Sun, 11 May 2008 22:05:14 -0500 General Discussion Phorum 5.1.25 60 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100109/100109#msg-100109 Flyingdiver35
Doug]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100109/100109#msg-100109 Sun, 11 May 2008 22:05:14 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100108#msg-100108 GM -------------------------------------------------------
> VW Microbus...
>
> I was not suggesting to use E85 in a plane. If
> you put it in a newer car that is not a FFV they
> run, just not so great.


No you didn't, and neither did I.

My above post is quite clear about the differences between the engineering and manufacturing of components on the two types of vehicles and the long term damage that will occur with improper use of E85. If anyone wants to burn a lesser performing fuel (lesser performing even in FFV vehicles) in their cars and have it run poor while they are at it, they can, it doesn't bother me at all.

I believe the context of posts starting from N761TJ is easily understandable to most of the readers.

I think N761TJ is correct and I feel my analogy is correct. I don't believe the new stuff is going to work in the old engines without expensive mods. We all have our opinion though and that's OK.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100108#msg-100108 Sun, 11 May 2008 21:41:20 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99634/100107#msg-100107 Rob General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99634/100107#msg-100107 Sun, 11 May 2008 21:30:29 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100103/100103#msg-100103 rsellers General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100103/100103#msg-100103 Sun, 11 May 2008 20:42:35 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100099/100099#msg-100099 Chad General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100099/100099#msg-100099 Sun, 11 May 2008 19:26:55 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100096#msg-100096 aztecf

Jeff]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100096#msg-100096 Sun, 11 May 2008 17:44:53 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100094#msg-100094 Jim Wells
In closing, I much prefer the Piper. I think you will too. Good luck.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100094#msg-100094 Sun, 11 May 2008 17:18:38 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99962/100093#msg-100093 Patrick General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99962/100093#msg-100093 Sun, 11 May 2008 16:59:06 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99962/100092#msg-100092 Patrick
And if that's not good enough... I'll borrow a quote from one of my friends to a visiting pilot friend "We do things differently in Alaska".]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99962/100092#msg-100092 Sun, 11 May 2008 16:55:08 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100091#msg-100091 Dave General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100091#msg-100091 Sun, 11 May 2008 15:50:03 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100089#msg-100089 Ron B. Ron]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100089#msg-100089 Sun, 11 May 2008 15:38:16 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100088#msg-100088 Martin H
You are right - there are a few tradeoffs.

The trim overhead - I thought that was odd, too. An anachronism. What I like to do - is think of myself as flying the big iron and that is the overhead panel. Surprisingly - once you get used to the overhead - it doesn't make a difference.

The single door - yeah - I wish there were two - but - it is also a bit quieter (more quiet?). Also less to go wrong in flight.

A Piper IS different - but not worse - just different. Besides - it'll be YOUR airplane and you will love it and all of its excentricities. Yet, another reason to do the owner assisted annual - you will see them first hand and know what does what and why on YOUR airplane.

Good luck, from the few nuggets you provided us about your potential airplane - it sounds like a winner and a plane you'll love.

Martin]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100088#msg-100088 Sun, 11 May 2008 15:03:17 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99969/100087#msg-100087 Jim Wells General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99969/100087#msg-100087 Sun, 11 May 2008 14:14:42 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100086#msg-100086 N761TJ -------------------------------------------------------
> Ed, If it were that bad, why would the FAA even
> bother to test or evaluate it>


The FAA engineers hears lead free replacement, high octane and from renewable resources how could the resist. Remember they leave it up to the suppliers to prove that it works and that it is NOT harmful.

Ed]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100086#msg-100086 Sun, 11 May 2008 14:03:11 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100085#msg-100085 J.F. General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100085#msg-100085 Sun, 11 May 2008 13:59:00 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100084#msg-100084 KEN G General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100084#msg-100084 Sun, 11 May 2008 13:55:21 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100083#msg-100083 J.F.
Although I of course wouldn't expect too many people to be putting down Pipers around here, every single post had either a little or a lot of useful information for me, and is definitely contributing greatly to my decision making.

This Piper I'm looking at is actually not cheap, but that's mostly due to new interior, avionics, other things, all the covers and the tow bar, GPS, etc ... Also in Canada A/C tend to be more expensive than their US counterparts, but I'm willing to swallow the bullet for the ease of the transaction and having a previous owner nearby.

Right now I'm about 99% decided on it, I just have to make sure I can afford it :) If any Canadians can point me to A/C financing or insurance (Other than the obvious big banks), I'd love to get some thoughts on that.

The sitting position looks quite different ... or maybe the windshield is bigger? I'm just saying that based on seeing how the instruments are laid out ... the avionics stack is much shorter (vertically) than in the C172's, forcing more avionics potentially to the right (In front of the passenger/co-pilot), which theoretically bugs me to no end, but whatever, something I'll get used to ...

Also, what's this about a trim control being overhead? And I just realized there's only one door ... not super convenient, especially since it's passenger side?!

All in all, excellent very helpful feedback, thanks a lot everyone!

Oh and Jim, thanks for the web site! I'll be sure to go through it!

J.F.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100083#msg-100083 Sun, 11 May 2008 13:38:29 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100082#msg-100082 KEN G -------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Water that gets around your fuel cap when it rains
> will usually be clear. But there's no guarantee
> that water infiltrating an FBO's system obeys that
> rule. I sumped some nice rusty water from one
> wing after a fill-up in the Bahamas. One can't
> use cloudy vs. clear to diagnose water vs.
> something else.
>
Granted, water isn't necessarily clear. But I don't see how water could be dispersed into the fuel to make a cloudy mixture. If it had been all cloudy water in the vial it wouldn't have been blue.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100082#msg-100082 Sun, 11 May 2008 13:36:38 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100081#msg-100081 flyguydon General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100081#msg-100081 Sun, 11 May 2008 12:29:47 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100080#msg-100080 flyguydon
I was not suggesting to use E85 in a plane. If you put it in a newer car that is not a FFV they run, just not so great.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100080#msg-100080 Sun, 11 May 2008 12:25:56 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99634/100078#msg-100078 28161 General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99634/100078#msg-100078 Sun, 11 May 2008 11:46:09 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100077#msg-100077 GM
GM]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100077#msg-100077 Sun, 11 May 2008 11:34:52 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100076#msg-100076 GM
The transition is negligible. Crosswinds are easier in a Piper, or should I say more forgiving of poor technique, and low the wing seems to ride any turbulence better. Interior room also seems to be better than a 172. The only drawback is visiblility down, but that's what knife-edge flight is for!!

Have fun with your Warrior.

GM]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99986/100076#msg-100076 Sun, 11 May 2008 11:33:04 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99634/100074#msg-100074 GM
I used to own and fly T-Crafts and Champs, but want to cruise and go IFR on occasion so I moved up. I have talked to owners with the hershey bar and tapered wings and there doesn't seem to be a significant advantage either way, although I personally like the look of the tapered wing better. But, then, the tapered wing is on the newer airplanes and you pay the price. I think a 60's model 180 is a great buy. I bought my Archer because it has a nice leather interior and good avionics, and my wife liked the matching throw pillows! Everybody is happy and those are our standards.

Didn't mean to run at the keypad, but I've been around at this a long time and I do see people not be realistic in what they buy and regret it later. I ferry airplanes as a sideline and hear the stories of why people are selling and buying.

I love my Archer.

GM]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99634/100074#msg-100074 Sun, 11 May 2008 11:22:31 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100070#msg-100070 johnsondelmar
- Plane is usually, but no always in its own secure hanger.
- Had been several days since last fuel added.
- I did not check for odor. This sounds like a good idea in general.
- It was blue, but cloudy. I always use the white fuselage as a background. But I cannot say for certain it was proper blue level.

I visually checked the seal on the right tank, but hosing with water & checking later sounds like a good idea.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100070#msg-100070 Sun, 11 May 2008 10:46:38 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100069#msg-100069 GM -------------------------------------------------------
> KEN G Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> More than one pilot has taken a nice, clear fuel sample
> and gone flying only to abruptly discover it
> actually had been a nice, clear water sample.
>
> Regards,
> Joe

It’s too bad for those guys taking off with their nice clear fuel. Looking back on pre solo exam days, nice clear fuel is no go in a reciprocating engine aircraft.

Take your sample and hold it up to look for contaminants then hold it next to a white portion of your fuselage or index card to verify the color. 100LL is not clear and the dye today is not as pronounced as it one was. The color is not easily discernable while holding it up to the sky. If the sample is clear smell it then try again. Jet fuel is in the kerosene family and it smells similar to kerosene. The last I heard in my initial training days, it also neutralizes the blue color.

It sounds like dirty water to me.

Keep draining it until it has no contaminants and it is 100% blue.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100069#msg-100069 Sun, 11 May 2008 08:59:53 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100065#msg-100065 Dave Matlock General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100065#msg-100065 Sun, 11 May 2008 07:52:45 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100064#msg-100064 JoeB -------------------------------------------------------
> If it's cloudy it isn't water. Would a small
> amount of Jet A turn cloudy and settle to the
> bottom?

Water that gets around your fuel cap when it rains will usually be clear. But there's no guarantee that water infiltrating an FBO's system obeys that rule. I sumped some nice rusty water from one wing after a fill-up in the Bahamas. One can't use cloudy vs. clear to diagnose water vs. something else.

Jet A doesn't settle out - quite the opposite. If you prepared a container carefully with layers of avgas and Jet A, after a while you'd find the two liquids had diffused into each other and were completely mixed. The two liquids are solvents for each other. Gas doesn't make Jet A cloudy, either.

Eric: Most likely water, but then you examined it, we didn't. Water will separate out with a distinct boundary, but when you have a lot of it your first sample won't have that boundary (it's all contaminant). So it's important to verify that your fuel samples actually are fuel. More than one pilot has taken a nice, clear fuel sample and gone flying only to abruptly discover it actually had been a nice, clear water sample. Your contaminant was polite enough to call attention to itself through its appearance. Keep a sharp eye on samples from that wing for a while. I kept finding drops of rusty water for the next half-dozen flights after the Bahamas.

You have three choices for source of the contaminant: the FBO's fuel truck, someone malicious, or leaking seals on your gas cap or around that small plate which holds the fuel filler onto the Toga's wing. If the plane had been left out in the rain recently or washed suspect leaking seals. Easy enough to test by hosing down the wing and, later, sampling the fuel.

Regards,
Joe]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/100041/100064#msg-100064 Sun, 11 May 2008 07:48:52 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100062#msg-100062 GM
All I'm saying, which is obviously contrary to others is I don't feel you can just fill up your 69 Chevelle with E85 and pretend all is honky dory as you head out on a 1000 mile road trip. Most of us are are flying "69 Chevelles."]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100062#msg-100062 Sun, 11 May 2008 07:40:33 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100059#msg-100059 flyguydon
Cars that are not flex fuel (E85) are not so much likely to have seals and all that go bad. They just don't run well on it as the E85 has less potential and is out of the range of the computer to compensate for it.

I think we are not too far away from the whole pork barrel ethanol gig going away anyway.]]> General Discussion http://forums.piperowner.org/read/1/99860/100059#msg-100059 Sun, 11 May 2008 06:26:04 -0500