http://forums.piperowner.org/list/23 EN Tue, 13 May 2008 14:34:47 -0500 Tue, 13 May 2008 14:34:47 -0500 Cherokee Family Phorum 5.1.25 60 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100129/100188#msg-100188 Michael Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100129/100188#msg-100188 Tue, 13 May 2008 14:34:47 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100174/100177#msg-100177 JoeB
I don't think there was much variability through the year range you're talking about. The factory spec empty weight on the 6X is about 200 pounds heavier than the factory spec '80 Saratoga, but that's primarily because the standard equipment airplane in '80 was a freighter. Starting in '94 Piper included passenger seats, cabin interior, and a host of other options as standard. There wasn't a significant change in the underlying airframe (the aerodynamic cleanups in '94 were close to a wash weight-wise). It's all about the options which the first owner ordered: My '88 Saratoga came from the factory with the full executive package and is a bit heavier than a "standard" 6X. Standard empty weight on the 6X is 2,216 pounds.

Retractable gear is going to cost you another 175 pounds, at least in terms of standard weight. Planes in the field usually reflect that as it's pretty hard to compensate for those particular pounds. Watch out for air conditioners: they cost another 70 pounds and were optional across the fleet. You don't want to suffer that penalty if you don't need AC.

Regards,
Joe]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100174/100177#msg-100177 Tue, 13 May 2008 07:06:52 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100025/100175#msg-100175 Jeff S Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100025/100175#msg-100175 Tue, 13 May 2008 05:50:53 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100174/100174#msg-100174 EC120
I'm looking at updating my 1980 Saratoga to a later model and was wanting to draw on the experience of the members which model and year does everyone think is the best equipped still with a useful load.

eg 6X or retractable 1999 - 2004 etc etc I want to stay with normally aspirated.

Thanks
Ron
Oz]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100174/100174#msg-100174 Tue, 13 May 2008 02:22:55 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100129/100133#msg-100133 Rick T.
Check the fuel strainer and make sure there are no restrictions/clogging to fuel flow. Try drawing fuel from each tank. The restriction could be upstream at the tank.

The pump could be drawing in air from a leaky seal....or damaged and causing cavitation.

How do you know you have air in the fuel line?]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100129/100133#msg-100133 Mon, 12 May 2008 11:42:42 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100129/100129#msg-100129 Michael Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100129/100129#msg-100129 Mon, 12 May 2008 09:24:04 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100025/100119#msg-100119 mcdgi
[i]FAR Sec. 23.3 - Airplane categories.

(a) The normal category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less, and intended for nonacrobatic operation. Nonacrobatic operation includes:

(1) Any maneuver incident to normal flying;

(2) Stalls (except whip stalls); and

(3) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, in which the angle of bank is not more than 60 degrees


[/i]]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100025/100119#msg-100119 Mon, 12 May 2008 07:44:37 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100090/100118#msg-100118 JoeB
As you guess, in the pattern it feels like you're flying a big Archer. When you get up to cruise speed the controls stiffen up - but who does maneuvers at those speeds besides airshow pilots? It comfortably gets in and out of 2,000' strips with flaps. It also can do 150 down a "keep your speed up" final and slow down for landing so it's not a problem mixing with the big boys when you need to. The big cabin is great for carrying everything and the elbow room will spoil you. Figure 18-19 gph for 75% power. My speed isn't pertinent to a Lance - Piper says expect 153KTAS at 75%. You can expect about a 5-knot difference between a full aircraft and just yourself and fuel. We use our Toga for routine trips from DC to Albany, Boston, and Ottawa and it does well. It sounds like the Lance would fit your mission nicely.

Regards,
Joe]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100090/100118#msg-100118 Mon, 12 May 2008 07:26:36 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100090/100102#msg-100102 wdgjrfaia I looked at a 1966 6/260, but had 1700 on the mill, old/outdated avionics, and original paint/interior. While the Lance's insurance will be $$ (I don't have complex/HP performance experience), it will do what I want for a VA to RI trip. And I will have to cross about 11 miles of water to my final destination. Should be like flying a big Archer.
And landing a Beech Sundowner required at least 2 notches of flaps and nailing the approach speed.
Thanks for the advice.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100090/100102#msg-100102 Sun, 11 May 2008 20:37:25 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100090/100100#msg-100100 Steve Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100090/100100#msg-100100 Sun, 11 May 2008 20:15:21 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100090/100090#msg-100090 wdgjrfaia Also, please advise on the general flying charachteristics of the Lance. I am familiar with 172s (ugh), Cardinals, Warriors, Archers, and Beech Sundowners (and about 2 hours in a PA-34).
Thanks.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100090/100090#msg-100090 Sun, 11 May 2008 15:49:35 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100025/100073#msg-100073 Bob
As for entry speed, we used 111 kts (124mph). In your 151 you may have to do a shallow descent to get the speed.

My son took his checkride in an Arrow IV. The manuevers are done the same in both airplanes. Transition time was minimal. Good luck on your commercial.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100025/100073#msg-100073 Sun, 11 May 2008 11:22:18 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99558/100072#msg-100072 johnsondelmar
The bottom line is this: When you cannot hold the MP you have dialed in, you are losing power, and speed.

For our conditions (relatively warm ambient temp), I noticed that for the 182, the MP (set at about 75% power) started to drop around 5000 ft.

At 65% power I suppose you could have flown a bit higher before not being able to hold the power.

For hot summer days, more power loss for a given altitude.

4,000 ft: Small difference
10,000 ft: Huge difference

A nice bonus with the turbo is the mixture setting is not as sensitive to altitude change. Whether I take off from sea level, or 8000 ft, just full rich.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99558/100072#msg-100072 Sun, 11 May 2008 11:00:27 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99558/100063#msg-100063 Steve Jackson Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99558/100063#msg-100063 Sun, 11 May 2008 07:41:29 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100025/100025#msg-100025 mcdgi
Today we were doing some oral prep work and I got into some weight and balance issues.

The instructor did not notice, but I noticed, that the operating handbook says that chandelles, lazy 8s etc are supposed to be done in the utility category, entry speed of 124 MPH.

Well, got two issues with that - 1) the Warrior doesn't go 124 MPH and 2) put me, the instructor and gas in the tank and total weight exceeds 1950 lbs, the top of the utility category.

Now, I have done lots of training on these maneuvers in both mine and other warriors, and I see tons of warriors out there in flight training schools and think they all have this issue, but nobody picks up on it. What baffles me is a manuever like a lazy 8 is no where near as stressful on the airplane as say doing steep turns and say spirals, which is OK.

Anyway, I got to wondering, what is the significance in the POH of listing the limits of doing the commercial manevers by indicating the utility category and an entry speed of 124 MPH.

One thought me and the instructor had was that its OK to do the commercial maneuvers in a warrior in the normal category PROVIDED the entry speed was LESS than 124 MPH. But the POH is not that clear on the subject.

In the meantime, my training has come to a crashing , uh, sudden, halt.

Anybody else run into this before?]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/100025/100025#msg-100025 Fri, 09 May 2008 22:19:38 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99801/99968#msg-99968 macunix -------------------------------------------------------
> (2) Is it being priced as a '79 or as an '80?

Bingo! Give that man a cigar! Vref & NAAA put a $2000 difference between the years.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99801/99968#msg-99968 Thu, 08 May 2008 20:13:48 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99801/99944#msg-99944 JoeB
Regards,
Joe]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99801/99944#msg-99944 Thu, 08 May 2008 07:02:43 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99877/99877#msg-99877 gerard009 I have the Narco CP-136 Audio Panel with the built in Marker Beacons. Well I have lost the illuminated marker light indicators (where working in the past) I still receive the tones when passing over the station, just no lights. They test and mute fine.
Any suggestions on where to start troubleshooting?
Many thanks,
Guy
1973 PA-28-140 IFR]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99877/99877#msg-99877 Wed, 07 May 2008 00:13:45 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/89022/99876#msg-99876 gerard009 Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/89022/99876#msg-99876 Wed, 07 May 2008 00:04:52 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/98963/99875#msg-99875 johnsondelmar
Full Power/full Rich/Max RPM on takeoff until 1000ft AGL, then I bring the MP down to 32. 38Mp is stressful on the engine. If the plane is sluggish in the climb, you forgot to bring up the wheels. Climb rate is very dependent on the load, usually between 700 - 1000 fpm.

During a normal climb, 30-32 MP works, but go to full rich to keep engine cool.

Cruise is up to you. I tend to keep my RPM high, 2400-2500, and vary the MP from 38-32, depending on how fast I want to go. Don't forget to periodically check mixture to account for speed change, altitude change, temp change, etc.

If you go by the manual, and at that fuel consumption rate, you are ROP. Keep the CHT's under 400. Due to the air cooling design, cyl #2 will always be the hottest at cruise. To find out how much ROP you are, you will need to perform a leaning procedure. Take my word for it after a lot of testing, much easier to simply enrichen until #2 cyl CHT just under 400. Even lower is better, but this can be a challenge at high altitudes (10,000+) on hot Summer days. You will have to burn more fuel or slow down.

I sometimes fly LOP, but this is after I had GAMI's installed and calibrate, paid for extra training, and installed an EDF-700 engine monitor.

For landing, I typically drop down my gears early (speed brakes), and settle in at 120kts, -500fpm. First stage gets you to 110, second about 100, third about 90. I like to cross the runway edge at 80, then gradually cut power during final descent. Touch down around 65, I think.

Once you get the hang of it you will appreciate how well it lands in gusty and crosswind conditions.

Once landed, turn off the fuel pump and lean the mixture to prevent plug fouling, this is especially important at high altitude airports as once the RPM's drop the turbo drops off and your plane realizes it is no longer at sea level!


Let me know if you have any other questions.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/98963/99875#msg-99875 Tue, 06 May 2008 23:53:35 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99801/99814#msg-99814 Bob
From the Warrior Service Manual.
Serial Numbers of the 1980 PA-28-161 WARRIOR II Models are 28-8016001 thru 28-8016373.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99801/99814#msg-99814 Mon, 05 May 2008 20:31:13 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99801/99801#msg-99801 macunix
Looking to buy a PA-28-161. I ordered the CD-ROM from the FAA and on the 'Application for Airworthiness' states its a 1979 model year. There's a box right on the form. The 'Standard Airworthiness Certificate' was issued 09/24/1979. Now looking at the serial number is starts off as 28-80161xx.

What year is this airplane? 1979 or 1980? Who do you believe, FAA or Piper?

Thanks!]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99801/99801#msg-99801 Mon, 05 May 2008 16:00:54 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99772#msg-99772 Rob
If the plane with the A/C is a nice bird, and it suits your mission (can carry you and whatever you need to carry), then by all means, make an offer. You might want to wait till a nice warm day and fly the bird though, see how she does with the high DA and all that weight.

The way I see it, and this is just my opinion - especially if the plane is hangared, the AC (even a swamp cooler) isn't necessary, just get her up in the air and it'll cool off quickly. The only time I've really ever wished I had A/C in an airplane was when flying patterns here in August - and even if I did have AC then I wouldn't have been able to use it!

But, like I said, if the plane suits your mission and the A/C is an extra, then treat it as such, it's an extra, it sounds like it adds some value to you, the worst that can happen is the seller will say no!]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99772#msg-99772 Mon, 05 May 2008 07:31:28 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99762#msg-99762 slider162 Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99762#msg-99762 Sun, 04 May 2008 23:13:38 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99752#msg-99752 Rob And if you're only going to be using it on the ramp, then - well, I'd just suffer if I were you - I'm pretty sure you can't have it on on take off or while doing the run-up, so that leaves taxxing and that's about it. I don't know where you fly out of, but here in my neck of the woods, that's not really even long enough for the AC to make a difference!

38k seems like an awful lot to me for a 140 horse bird, but, as is evident by another thread on here, I must be more thrifty than most (I just sold a warrior for 34k and bought a Mooney for 50k).]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99752#msg-99752 Sun, 04 May 2008 21:37:00 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99749#msg-99749 slider162
I asked what his bottom dollar was today and I think he gave a honest answer of $38k. I think I may offer something lower. With the door open on the ground, it wasn't too bad. I don't forsee using it once airborn.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99749#msg-99749 Sun, 04 May 2008 21:08:59 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99747#msg-99747 Rob
To you, however, it might be worth a ton. If you really must have an airplane with air conditioning, then maybe you've found the right one; if the ac is something you're not too worried about, then I wouldn't pay extra for it - make the owner an offer, the worst that can happen is he'll say no. It is worth noting though, that you could put in a swamp cooler for under $100 if you wanted to make it yourself, or you could buy one of those Sporty's portable AC units for under 1k.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99747#msg-99747 Sun, 04 May 2008 20:55:07 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99746#msg-99746 slider162
Also, what would be the added value for having a working A/C unit? The owner was thinking $5,000. He is asking top dollar for a well taken care of plane. Just wondering out loud before I pull the trigger.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99746/99746#msg-99746 Sun, 04 May 2008 20:48:32 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/98963/99731#msg-99731 Armin I fly a 1979 Turbo Lance. Is a little bit older, but seems to have the same problem. Without weight in the rear baggage compartment, a perfect landing is a gamble, especially on short fields, if you fly alone or with only one pax on the front seat. My solution is, a 5 gallon fuel can filled with fine sand - gives about 50 pounds weight and no problems even in the cold season. When I fly without persons on the back seat, I place this can in the rear baggage compartment. The result is impressive.]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/98963/99731#msg-99731 Sun, 04 May 2008 13:57:24 -0500 http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99684/99726#msg-99726 JimC JimC]]> Cherokee Family http://forums.piperowner.org/read/23/99684/99726#msg-99726 Sun, 04 May 2008 11:49:11 -0500